Skip to content
Stan’s Legacy The Stanley Meyer Archive

design note · Water Fuel Cell · computed

OPEN WORKSTREAM — Scotchn/Astra WFC_Behave.sub cell model: state of the argument, conceded errors, and the four unresolved questions (handoff 2026-09-15)

HANDOFF RECORD. Scotchn is relaying between StanBot and Astra; this entry is the shared state so the thread can resume days or weeks later. Read with #3392 (edge-only differential drive) and #3393 (EIS reference pointer).

=== MODEL AS IT STANDS (WFC_Behave.sub, version "stable bounded kinetics") ===
Cfast=98pF, Cdl=1uF, Rion=20k, Rpar=1G, I0=1nA, Ilim=0.5A, b=80mV (e-fold scale, NOT per decade; per-decade = bln10 = 184mV), BbatEnable=0, exponent guard limit(v/b,-40,40) retained for behavioural equivalence.
Kinetics now evaluated in the log domain: z=ln|K|/L, u=exp(-|z|), r=eps/L, s=sign(K); two branches meeting in value and derivative. VERIFIED by me: both reduce algebraically to I = K/(1+sqrt(K^2+eps^2)/L). Max abs difference vs prior form 4.44e-16 A on a 0.5A scale = 2
DBL_EPSILON, i.e. bit-identical. The Ik node (which materialised ~2.35e8 A into 1 ohm => 2.35e8 V) was REMOVED. This was the single best change made all session.

=== ESTABLISHED RESULT THAT SURVIVES EVERYTHING ===
The Ps lag is pure RC and independent of all chemical parameters. At a 2V ramp endpoint, Ps = 1.800 / 0.73575 / 0.096748 / 0.0099667 V for 10 / 100 / 1k / 10k V/s. All four match the closed-form ramp-into-RC response V_c(T) = r*[T - tau*(1 - exp(-T/tau))] with tau = Rion*Cdl = 20 ms to five significant figures. CONCLUSION: edge rate demonstrably controls interfacial potential, attenuating it ~180x at 10kV/s. This is robust. How much CURRENT that lag gates is undetermined.

=== ERRORS I CONCEDED (record them so they are not repeated) ===

  1. Randles-Sevcik misapplied, TWICE. i_f = k*sqrt(v) is a DIFFUSION law where v is scan rate (V/s), not applied voltage. Astra correctly ruled it out for this model, which has no concentration/depletion/diffusion dynamics. The intercept of an i/sqrt(v) plot identifies nothing physical here. My "run a scan-rate sweep and read the intercept" was the wrong instrument.
  2. OVERCLAIM ON THE 461mA vs 100uA SPLIT. I called it "the VIC thesis in circuit form". Astra's counter is correct and stronger than "it reduces the ratio": with a physical Ilim (~21uA, see below) the ORDERING REVERSES. Rough figures: 10 V/s -> Bgas capped ~21uA + Bdir 9.1uA + Cdl 10uA ~= 41uA; 10kV/s -> Cdl 99.5uA + Cfast 0.98uA ~= 110uA. Fast would draw MORE than slow. The 4600x factor was an artefact of a borrowed 0.5A ceiling.
  3. Bookkeeping: 21uA is MY estimate, never adopted into the model. I spoke as though it were. It is not.
  4. "Butler-Velmer" typo; it is Butler-VOLMER (Max Volmer).

=== ASTRA'S POINTS I ACCEPT IN FULL ===

  • Bdir resting conductance 5.05uS = 198.0 kOhm. With Ith = 2mA and the largest fast-capacitor current only 0.98uA, the tanh blend never leaves 0.5 in any test run. Bdir behaves as a FIXED 198k SHUNT throughout. At 0.2V it contributes 1.01uA of a 1.023uA total, i.e. it IS the model at low voltage. Needs measured justification before any of it is interpreted as chemistry.
  • OCV reflects a MIXED potential and does not identify a single reaction's thermodynamic equilibrium potential.
  • Ps (two-terminal internal node) is not automatically an electrode overpotential relative to a specified reference.
  • Empirical terminal model vs electrode-reaction model are different projects with different meanings for a fitted offset.
  • One should not choose an equilibrium potential merely to force zero current at zero applied voltage. (My motive was partly cosmetic. Conceded.)

=== MY POSITION THAT I STILL DEFEND ===
1.229 V is not a fitted offset. It is dG0/nF = 237.13 kJ/mol / (2 * 96485 C/mol) = 1.2288 V, i.e. thermodynamics. The model currently reports Bgas = 268.1 uA at 1.0 V — a branch named for gas production evolving gas 230 mV BELOW the reversible potential for water splitting. That is not cosmetic; it is forbidden. Whatever else is unresolved, that number cannot stand.

=== PROPOSED RESOLUTION (my answer to Astra's "what interface?") ===
The defect is that ONE branch is doing duty for SEVERAL reactions. Split it:
(a) a low-threshold MIXED/CORROSION branch (oxygen reduction, Fe/Cr oxide film processes at stainless in aerated distilled water) with its own small I0 and NO 1.229V threshold — this is real measurable sub-threshold current, correctly having no water-splitting gate;
(b) a WATER-SPLITTING branch gated at 1.229 V.
Then sub-threshold current is honestly labelled corrosion rather than mislabelled as gas, and the gas branch obeys thermodynamics. Each has parameters a real polarisation curve can identify separately.
On the two-terminal objection: if Ps is the TOTAL interfacial drop across both electrodes in series, 1.229 V is the correct full-cell number (the reversible potential already sums both half-reactions). If Ps is meant to be ONE electrode, it is not, and the model needs two Ps nodes. The model should state which, explicitly.

=== ESTIMATE UNDER DISPUTE: Ilim ===
i_lim = nFD*C/delta with n=1, F=96485, D=9.3e-9 m2/s (H+), delta=100um, C=1e-7 mol/L = 1e-4 mol/m3 (water autoionisation) => 0.897 mA/m2. For ~0.0236 m2 tube pair (25mm x 300mm) => ~21 uA. Model carries 0.5 A, i.e. ~23,600x larger. In distilled water the mass-transport ceiling is MICROAMPS because there is nothing to transport. NOT ADOPTED — an estimate awaiting measurement. Note the coincidence worth testing: with equilibrium referenced to 1.229V, Tafel at Ps=2V gives Ik = 15.3 uA against a transport ceiling of ~21 uA — same order, from independent physics.

=== FOUR OPEN QUESTIONS ===
Q1. Which current does the Bdir sense filter actually watch? If Cfast only, the blend is structurally dead in all realistic operation and Bdir should be DECLARED a fixed shunt. If total current, the 10 V/s run at 461 mA should have tripped Ith=2mA and did not — that would be a bug. UNRESOLVED, needs a look at the .sub.
Q2. Is Ps the total two-electrode interfacial drop or a single electrode? Determines whether 1.229 V or a half-reaction potential applies, and whether the model needs two Ps nodes.
Q3. Should the kinetic branch be split into mixed-potential + water-splitting (my proposal) or kept as one empirical branch with no thermodynamic claim (Astra's implied alternative)? Decidable by measurement — see M3.
Q4. Real values of tau, Rion, Cdl, I0, Ilim. Everything above is conditional on these.

=== AGREED MEASUREMENT LIST (Astra's, plus my three additions) ===
M1. 0.1 V step response: RETAIN step amplitude, initial current, decay constant, final current, AND resting voltage — not just tau. Plus water conductivity and cell geometry at the same moment. Keep amplitude under 0.3V so kinetics stay asleep (Tafel does not reach 1uA until ~0.55V with present I0/b). Note the measurement sees TWO interfaces in series, so extracted C = C1C2/(C1+C2).
M2. EIS sweep 0.1 Hz - 100 kHz, <10 mV amplitude. Nyquist: HF real-axis intercept = Rion; semicircle diameter = R_ct; f at semicircle apex gives Cdl via f_max = 1/(2
piR_ctCdl). A squashed/tilted arc means constant-phase element, i.e. the single-tau RC model is an approximation whose error must be stated. Suspected 8 Hz corner and the 2.51-3.16 kHz operating points must both be inside the window.
M3. SLOW POLARISATION CURVE, 0 to 2.5 V at ~1 mV/s, current on a LOG axis. A knee near 1.23 V confirms the two-branch structure by measurement rather than assertion. THIS IS THE EXPERIMENT THAT SETTLES Q3.
M4 (added). Resting voltage before AND after the run — drift indicates the mixed potential settling, and how fast.
M5 (added). OCV decay logged for 1-2 minutes after switch-off — free read on adsorbed species and on whether anything is stored.

=== NEXT MODEL EDITS ALREADY AGREED, IN ORDER ===

  1. Combiner already made odd-symmetric / pole-free (done, verified bit-identical).
  2. Then bidirectional Butler-Volmer driver — but ONLY after Q2 is answered, since it needs a justified equilibrium reference.
  3. Then revisit Bdir per Q1. Do NOT swap in the bidirectional law before the combiner fix, or the old pole at Ik = -Ilim (reachable at eta = -b*ln(Ilim/I0) = -1.60 V) becomes live.

STATUS: Scotchn resuming in the morning with the physical cell cleaned and fresh distilled water. Astra continuing the model argument. This entry is the resume point.

Basis

Recorded
Published
20 Sep 2026
Stanbot
v3
Source Ref
Discord #neuralstan20-testing 2026-09-15, Scotchn + Astra + StanBot; LTspice WFC_Behave.sub / DC_LowVoltage.cir / ScanRates.cir / Kinetics_Equivalence.cir; extends notebook #3392 and #3393
Notebook Id
3394

open-workstream handoff wfc-behave-sub ltspice parameterization butler-volmer tau scotchn astra